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Range wind Characteristics

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Posts: 5
(@dave-dixon)
Active Member
Joined: 1 year ago

John, Mitchell, Brendan, and Les, thank you for your pragmatic comments on Chris’s question. May I ask some very specific questions, perhaps a little naively, that may further point us strugglers toward better flag reading. (I will leave mirage reading to a later date). It would be a bit of work to answer the following questions but I, for one, would greatly appreciate anything you can tell us.

When each of you are waiting for the ideal “condition” in which to shoot, how do you recognise it …. based on the following?

  1. Planning, - Prior to your detail commencing do you observe the flags and pre-decide on a prevailing condition that you will then wait for. If so, does this work for you most of the time?
  2. Velocity – Do you favour a condition that has a low wind speed as opposed to a condition where the wind is slightly stronger but more consistent.
  3. Uniformity - Do you wait until ALL the flags near your line of fire are acting in a similar way, or just certain ones. (Brendan touched on this in his comments)
  4. Importance - In twitchy changing conditions (particularly at 200 Yards) do you prioritise the nearer flags (eg < 100) almost to the point of ignoring the distant flags.
  5. Tactics – If you put a hole in the scorer target and the wind changes do you:
    1. Wait as long as possible for the exact condition to return
    2. Wait for a somewhat similar condition to return and correct POA after shooting the sighter
    3. Pick a different condition and correct POA after shooting the sighter
    4. Guestimate how much to correct the POA based on experience
    5. All the above (in what order?)
    6. Something else
  6. Flag positioning - Do you prefer your flags placed in line with your left eye (right handed shooter) to the target. How many flags do you think is ideal (for your particular bench) for 100 and 200 yards
  7. Field – I assume you watch the sea of flags up-wind and downwind to see if a condition is about to change. What do you do if you have a left hand bench with a persistent 9 o’clock breeze with no flags upwind - like bench 1 at Canberra.
  8. Flags – Do you give primary importance to the flag tail position or the flag propeller speed?
  9. Tails - Do you prefer light surveyor material or the heavier BRT sail type material. Do you switch tails for different weather conditions?
  10. Red / Green – if you have the option, do you prefer a left or right wind. Is that on the basis of bullet rotation, personal reference, or experience at that particular range?
  11. Time - If you chamber a round and then the condition suddenly changes how long will you leave that round chambered before you don’t trust its accuracy and you fire it off into the sighter?
  12. Do shooters who ask dopey questions about flags annoy you? (lol)

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John Babic
Posts: 44
Moderator Registered
(@editor-b8p3q9r9)
Member
Joined: 1 year ago

Dave, I will try and give my 2 cents worth here point by point as you have tabled it but please remember, this is just my opinion or method of doing things. It's not thoe holy grail.

1. Yes, it's a good idea to observe the flags prior to your detail and and choose a prevailing condition, but you can't get fixated on this as the condition may not be as prevelant when your shooting so you must be prepared to shoot what ever is on offer.

2. My preference is low wind speed for a couple of reasons. First, it's logical that at a lower wind speed there will be less bullet displacement and your bullet should be hitting closer to your aim point so if the wind does change direction it is easier to figure out where to hold off if required. On the other hand, if for example you are shooting a strong left to right condition where your bullet is printing a couple of rings to the right and you suddenly get a right to left condition with 20 seconds to go, it would be a lot harder to figure out how much to hold over for the change.

3. This last shoot at Canberra, there was rarely a time where the 2 back flags at 200 were the same as the front 3 or 4. It's nice to have them all pointing in the same direction and showing the same level of wind velocity but that's hardly ever the case. What is important is that every shot you fire is on the same condition as the one before and that you learn to estimate how much to hold off when it's not.

4. I believe that the near flags or rather the wind closer to your muzzle will have the most effect on where your bullet ends up on the target, however, this applies only if the wind velocity is the same near the muzzle and at the target. If the wind velocity is stronger at the target, then this will have more impact on your bullet. So you must watch all flags at all times.

5. All of the above. In answer to your question, depends on how much time you have and how big a change it is. The more you shoot, the better "feel" you will have for this. If you are not sure and have time, go to the sighter and check. This touches on another subject, target management. When the commence fire command is given, the first thing I do is shoot on the two left/right bulls on the sigther. I use the left for a prevailing left to right condition and opposite on the right. This gives me a reference point and shows me where my bullet will go in case I don't have time to go to the sighter once I started my group. 

6. I'm right handed. I like to set my flags up so they line up with the left edge of the bench and centre of the target. This gives me a good filed of view with my left eye while aiming and not having to lift my head. I think 4 flags to 100 is usually sufficient and 2 or 3 more from 100 to 200. This all depends on the range set up. Others like to set up directly from muzzle to target.

7. Deal with it or put a another row of flags to the left of you so you have some warning as to what's coming.

8. Both and it depends on what type of tail you use.

9. I prefer the light weight tail or surveyors tape as I prefer to shoot the lighter condition but others prefer the sail as it gives them a precise angle of the tail which they can reference back to. 

10. I don't know exactly why this is but at Canberra I like to shoot the red, or left to right condition where as at Silverdale, the red is a real hard condition to figure out, seems to drop the point of impact unpredictably.

11. If youv'e fired 10 or more shots in quick succession it's probably not a good idea to leave the bullet in the chamber to cook for too long but I don't worry about it too much as I usually only shoot 2 or 3 sighters and the 5 shot group. When shooting at home where it is very windy at times and you have about 3 seconds to pick a condition to shoot, I have to close the bolt with the bullet in the chamber ready to shoot. I never noticed any stray flyers due to this and in fact shot some very small groups shooting this way. 

12. Discussion is good.


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Posts: 26
Topic starter
(@chrisjon65)
Eminent Member
Joined: 1 year ago

Thanks John

That’s the type of reply worth printing out and keeping for future reference. Well done 

(From a shooter who asks dopey questions all the time)


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Posts: 47
(@les-fraser)
Trusted Member
Joined: 1 year ago
  1. Planning, - Prior to your detail commencing do you observe the flags and pre-decide on a prevailing condition that you will then wait for. If so, does this work for you most of the time? Planning is the key to shooting well gather as much about wind conditions in the 10 target as you can use the time to shoot on different flags building your wind parameters to shoot on. No person on the planet can give you the exact wind speed and effect on the projectile. It is about learning when not to shoot. Take a stop watch with you and seek out the wind parameter timings how long a condition will stay how long do you have to shoot. There are two main ways of shooting Benchrest - Run a condition or Pick conditions. Running a condition is shooting your 5 scorers within the wind parameter selected. Picking a condition shoot one on the sighter then one on the scorer and confirm back with the sighter. You can employ a little bit of both but that will only confuse the new shooter. 
  2. Velocity – Do you favour a condition that has a low wind speed as opposed to a condition where the wind is slightly stronger but more consistent. - Depending on the type bullet you use and the distance you are shooting 100yds you have a wider wind bracket of error because your projectiles are at their fastest. Sometimes on switching winds you may shoot on the maximum value if this condition holds the longest and is consistent. You will only find this out on the sighter. Sighter targets are not there to shoot groups on they are there for information. 
  3. Uniformity - Do you wait until ALL the flags near your line of fire are acting in a similar way, or just certain ones. (Brendan touched on this in his comments) Flag uniformity is a mixed bag i doubt i have ever seen absolute uniformity there is always slight differences these however may or may not change the point of impact. This comes back to your wind gathering capabilities. 
  4. Importance - In twitchy changing conditions (particularly at 200 Yards) do you prioritise the nearer flags (eg < 100) almost to the point of ignoring the distant flags. You cannot ignore any flags in your direct line on coming they all play a significant part. Frontal fishtail winds present a significant problem for most shooters and most will wait until there is either right or left dominance before they fire the shot. If i am shooting in difficult condition most of my scoring is done in the last minute of so of the detail i use the other time allowed to gather wind parameters. 
  5. Tactics – If you put a hole in the scorer target and the wind changes do you:
    1. Wait as long as possible for the exact condition to return
    2. Wait for a somewhat similar condition to return and correct POA after shooting the sighter
    3. Pick a different condition and correct POA after shooting the sighter
    4. Guestimate how much to correct the POA based on experience
    5. All the above (in what order?)
    6. Something else - Personally I will seek out the wind parameter i feel is best and time this with the timer then I will shoot just before the time on the sighter then wait till the end of the wind parameter and fire another shot into the sighter and time this. If the two shots touch the very next time this condition returns it is getting 5 scorers. 
  6. Flag positioning - Do you prefer your flags placed in line with your left eye (right handed shooter) to the target. How many flags do you think is ideal (for your particular bench) for 100 and 200 yards - There is to much importance placed on flag placement into your scope Short range, Air Rifle, Rimfire bench they all use this thinking i personally do not think this is as important as where the flags are situated. Ideally 3 flags to 100yds, 3 flags to 200 yards- flags placed at the most available position to indicate the best value of the wind. At Canberra the thinking is to have the first flag for 200 yds in the ditch just behind the backstop. I do not agree with this at this is a low pressure area caused by winds travelling over the backstop. The bullets flight will be impacted but not at that point i prefer to have the first flag about 15 feet past this point to get an indication of direction if the true value of the effect in this area would have to indicate up and down not right to left. 
  7. Field – I assume you watch the sea of flags up-wind and downwind to see if a condition is about to change. What do you do if you have a left hand bench with a persistent 9 o’clock breeze with no flags upwind - like bench 1 at Canberra. Answered above i hope. 
  8. Flags – Do you give primary importance to the flag tail position or the flag propeller speed? I doubt anyone can see propeller speed over the indication of the tail raising or falling. Tails indicate a wind parameter that is repeatable and helps to alert the shooter to changes. 
  9. Tails - Do you prefer light surveyor material or the heavier BRT sail type material. Do you switch tails for different weather conditions? Green tape 
  10. Red / Green – if you have the option, do you prefer a left or right wind. Is that on the basis of bullet rotation, personal reference, or experience at that particular range? It all depends on what has the most effect and what is repeatable. 
  11. Time - If you chamber a round and then the condition suddenly changes how long will you leave that round chambered before you don’t trust its accuracy and you fire it off into the sighter? Personally i keep the both open when deciding if however i have closed the bolt and the condition changes then the sighter target is where it is headed/ 
  12. Do shooters who ask dopey questions about flags annoy you? (lol) no question is dopey it is great you are asking question. 

Good shooting to all Les

 

 


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